Interview with Neturei Karta, the anti-Zionist Orthodox Jewish Group

I first came across Neturei Karta while photographing a pro-Palestine march in Queens, New York. I was surprised to see several Orthodox Jews at the protest, holding signs and condemning Zionism and the state of Israel. The following interview is with Joseph Kohn, one of Neturei Karta’s spokespeople.

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To start off, can you please introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your background?

Joseph Kohn: My name is Joseph Kohn. I have been born and raised here in Williamsburg in a very strong Jewish community over here for years. My great-grandparents luckily survived Nazi Holocaust and they settled here. Actually, my mother's father first settled in Palestine but then in 1948 as the war erupted and the Zionists created their state, he emigrated to the United States and then he moved to this neighborhood in Williamsburg. He became a rabbi in Uruguay, Montevideo. But then later on he moved over here. He was actually a student of one of the very famous rabbis in Jerusalem at the time, whose name is Rabbi Yosef Dushinsky and he was a very strong voice in the Jewish community and stood in strong opposition to the upcoming creation of the Zionist state in Palestine. He actually went to the League of Nations before the United Nations was created, and went into the U.N. Committee on Palestine to testify and to plead with the world not to establish a Jewish state in Palestine.

This is the rabbi that your father studied under?

JK: Yeah, he passed away in 1949, so this goes back a long time. So what people often don't know is that people think that Jews realized how bad Zionism is just recently and then they decided to join the Palestinians ... But the fact of the matter is, that Jewish opposition to Zionism started immediately parallel with when Zionism was invented. So, in other words, anti-Zionist activism is in my blood. So my great-grandparents were all opposed to Zionism, and they were looking for ways back then how to make people aware of the evilness of Zionism. They spoke a lot of that, and wrote a lotta articles, so you grew up in that sense.

And that the evil of Zionism that they were against is mainly due to religious reasons?

JK: Yeah. The basis of Zionism is fundamentally contradictory to everything that Judaism stands for. The very basics and also the details of the occupation, the killing and stealing, each and every step of it goes against Jewish teachings. The very basic idea of having a Jewish sovereign state goes against one of the most fundamental beliefs in Judaism, of exile and godly redemption. So, all the rabbinical leaders from the very beginning opposed Zionism, they spoke out against it. We have hundreds of quotes of rabbis from all times and all countries around Europe and other places.

Was your father part of Neturei Karta, or did that come after?

JK: So the point of the Neturei Karta is not that you're either in the Neturei Karta, it's either you are anti-Zionist, so once you are anti-Zionist, one can decide to join the activities and to give voice to the anti-Zionist Jewish communities' views.

So it's a political group, essentially.

JK: I would say it is a think tank group.

But the main kind of guiding principle is anti-Zionism, right?

JK: Yes.

And when was it founded?

JK: 1938.

1938, so before Israel was created.

JK: The aim of the Neturei Karta was to prevent the creation of the state and to make anti-Zionist inroads in the Jewish community. So it was a group of Jews who were very active and they decided to create an organization to combat Zionism and, ideologically speaking, within the Jewish Community and outside, they later on reached out to the non-Jewish communities around, to join forces.

JK: It was founded in Jerusalem, but in Europe there wasn't a need so much to create a new organization to combat Zionism. All the traditional organizations and communities were mostly headed by rabbis, and the rabbis issued statements on the condemnation of Zionism… Zionism had a lot of opposition in Europe. For instance, one of the steps was to encourage European Jews to leave Europe and to immigrate to Palestine in order to take over the land … So there were Jews who immigrated from all across Europe to Palestine but there are two different types of immigration -- the immigration that the Zionists encouraged were mainly with the aim to take over the land but in order to convince Jews they didn't use that term, that we are going to kick out an entire people over there, they didn't say that. They came with the saying that Palestine is a land without a people, and Jews are the people without the land. No one knew back in that time exactly what happens in the other part of the world. And that there was no mass media like we have today. So a lot of people believed that, so they told people that we are going to build a land, the land is empty, we're going to built it and then we going tell everyone that no one is going to be bothered by that. But religious Jews, most of the time, even before Zionism came, there was a very small percentage of Jewish migration to Palestine, The only reason is to worship God, but still, there was a minority over there, and the aim was not to build on someone else's land at all, to create a sovereign state at all. It was only to worship the God of the Holy Land, that's all.

Did the Holocaust change the thinking around Jewish migration or the need for a Jewish homeland? What was the group's take on where Jewish refugees should go?

JK: After the Holocaust, people were very overwhelmed by what happened. A lot of Jews thought that it wouldn't be possible anymore to live in Europe. They were looking at Europe like Jews are not accepted over there and they were looking to settle in other places. So a lot of Jews would go to places in the USA, in North American countries and other parts of the world. But Zionists created a propaganda that you will only settle in Palestine. And Palestine at that time was under the British, so they created mass rallies to demonstrate and to ask and protest the British government, because the British at that time didn't want mass immigration, Jewish immigration to Palestine because they knew it was going to create big problems in Palestine. Also at the time, the Zionists in Palestine had created at least two militant groups. They were actually involved in attacks against … Civilians, Palestinians.

There was a famous ship with immigrants, Jewish immigrants that they sunk, because the British didn't want to allow it into Palestine and they wanted to redirect it.

So the Zionists said no, they're only going to Palestine, if not we're going to sink it and so then they blamed the British and they said you see what happens when you don't allow Jews to Palestine. (This is known as the Patria disaster.)

So they used all kind of tactics to … help Jews immigrate only to Palestine. So the Holocaust happened in Europe, on European soil. But what about the Jews who lived peacefully in Arab and Muslim countries throughout the Middle East? So for them they have created a different set of propaganda machine to have them move to Israel. First they tried to promise them a better future and the newly created Israel they've created in Palestine. And again, they didn't know that this was created at the expense of another people …. And a lot of people bought the propaganda, even though it was obvious that it didn't correlate with what we know about Messiah. So, a lotta other communities, they say well things have changed and the tools no longer are required to be an exile and we freed ourselves and again they promised them a better future, they promised them we will give you homes and jobs.

Some say the creation of Zionism led to some of the pogroms in the Middle East and resulted in people feeling very resentful towards the Jewish population. What do you think about that?

JK: Yeah, it unfortunately happened. We can see the facts. Like in 1967, there was an Israeli war, I think against Syria, Egypt and Jordan. And after that, the Arab world was very upset with what they thought is all the Jews. And a lot of Jews faced massive discrimination … but they felt very unwelcome in the Arab countries where they have been living for hundreds of years peacefully. In Egypt there was a community of over 50,000 Jews in 1967 and then all of a sudden the population turned against them because of what Israel has done. And they all thought that this is the Jewish state, and all of Jews support it. So this even made the problem worse.

JK: The Zionists have created this whole notion about Palestinians being against Jews, and the only solution would be to kill them all out, God forbid. And still some Jews are buying this and some non-Jews also that the next Holocaust is designed by the Palestinians and they vilify the Palestinians … They totally disregard the history of Palestine and what happened to the Palestinians, but obviously some people are so short-sighted.

Going back to Neturei Karta… Where do Neturei Karta supporters live mainly? Are you based mainly in Williamsburg or in New York?

JK: Wherever there are Jews living, religious Jews, there are Jews who oppose Zionism. It doesn't have to be under the name of Neturei Karta, but there are Jews everywhere who oppose Zionism in every country, in any city where Jews live. So there are Jews taking this matter seriously and deciding they have to do something about it and have to actually speak out in public against that and not everyone has the courage but some people do have thankfully and they decided to come out. So a lot of them joined ranks with Neturei Karta and we live all over the place in Jerusalem and London, England, Montreal, Canada, Manchester and even Australia, Melbourne and of course here in New York and in the Jewish community there are a lot of Jews against Zionism.

I first saw your group at the Astoria Queens rally … and then also at the DC March. So I know that showing up to marches and rallies is a part of your strategy. What is the rationale and thinking around this strategy? And have you faced any kind of problems at these rallies or discrimination or anything like that?

JK: We were absolutely welcomed warmly by the rallies. A lot of them know about our existence because they are Palestinians and it's not new for them that there are Jews who are pro-Palestine. We were very warmly welcomed and so the idea is to disassemble the whole Zionist concept that Jews are at war with Palestinians and there is no way out of this conflict. We try to dismantle this narrative so there are a number of things that are achieved with going to these kinds of rallies and marches. First we show that we... can be living side by side with Palestinians, there is no need for a state that creates only misfortune for people so but of course the main thing by going, I mean we have to raise our voices against this injustice that is done specifically because it's in our name, we cannot sit silent and let our name be used for such an unjustifiable genocidal war and for the whole concept of Zionism. So we have to speak out against it. I mean the Zionists have created a narrative throughout especially the Western countries that they represent all the Jews and, I mean, what is funny about that is you don't have any country that says they represent all people in the world.

Did you grow up in an anti-Zionist family? How did you become inspired to become a part of Neturei Karta and take on anti-Zionism?

JK: … I decided I have to do something about it … when I was, I would say, 16 years old.

And was there something in particular that you remember motivating you or touching you?

JK: I believe it was a chain of things, not specifically one item. And there are people in the Neturei Karta who come from different backgrounds. Not all of them came from a very anti-Zionist community. Some of them came from a very Zionist background and they just realized how bad things are and they start learning about the situation. But they start learning, studying Jewish books to talk about the evils of Zionism and how it's antithetical to Jewish belief. They were told in the Zionist communities that in order to be a good Jew, they have to serve Zionism. But something didn't make sense to them, so they started questioning Zionism, and they looked for answers until they came to read more and more books and to listen and they opened up.

Was there anything in terms of looking at the news and anything that was happening in Palestine and Israel that motivated you or was it primarily the Torah’s teachings?

JK: Primarily the total text because in our view because we are religious. What the Torah says is more important, more convincing to us and what actually happens. So even in times back in like 10, 20 years ago when Palestine was massively suppressed and specifically in the Western community, in Western media, we were still siding with Palestine. Neturei Karta always had good terms with Palestinian leadership and Ramallah and the West Bank. And leaders of Neturei Karta visited Iran back in 2004. So we were always, you know, it wasn’t the news that convinced us to change course.

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It is an annual tradition for Neturei Karta to burn the Israeli flag on Purim, a Jewish holiday that commemorates the saving of the Jewish people from annihilation at the hands of the Achaemenid Empire. It is generally a festive day of merry-making and it’s common to dress in costume in order to add to the carnival-esque atmosphere of the holiday which also includes feasting and drinking.

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How specifically does the Torah advise your views on the state of Israel and occupied Palestine? I know the main thing is that only the Messiah can restore Jewish sovereignty.

JK: So let's say the truth would have been that Zionism would have created a state in an uninhabited land without any people. They would create a sovereign state without anyone. It would still have been forbidden for Jews to create their own sovereign states because the Messiah didn't come and we had an exile because God sent us into here and this is the way he wants us not to be. We are not allowed to do any physical means to end this exile, we just have to practice our religion, worship God and that's all. We don't have to seek to be our own sovereign state, rather we have to be loyal citizens in the countries in which we reside. But now that the fact has been that Zionists have created a state at the expense of Palestinians, this violates other rules of the Torah as well, like not killing, not stealing, and all of this evil stuff that they started doing to Palestinians.

I mean it's clearly against the Torah. It's a massive propaganda that brainwashes people not to see what is obvious, how contradictory this is to the Torah. So we're trying on all fronts, we are trying to make people aware, Jewish people, to make them aware of what's happening.

This is not supported by our religion.

What do you think Israel should do in regards to the Palestinian occupation and the Jewish settlers that are taking more land, and the division of the territory now that there is a state. What is the path forward?

JK: Basically our solution to the problem, the only solution is to take away the cause of the problem. So in our view the one thing that can work is to dismantle this entity entirely. What we will do with the people living over there, that's a different question. But the entity, the states, the government, that has to be dismantled. And we have to rectify the issues, the injustices that have been done in the past. We have taken into account that there has been a displacement of people and they are in refugee camps, they have the right to return. And so, once we are there, I'm sure creative people will find out ways to resettle the people. Maybe they will make some deals or whatever it is. We could find peaceful solutions on how to settle people once they are willing to live in peace and coexist.

So that would essentially be a one-state solution. But in terms of the Jewish people that live there, do you guys have a stance on whether they should stay or what should happen to them? Or the Israeli settlers that live in the West Bank? … Now that the tensions between the two groups are so fierce, some Palestinians may not want Jewish people to live there anymore because of everything that's happened, right?

JK: The main thing for Jews is to practice, to be able to live and practice their religion. It doesn't have to have been in a certain area, so wherever Jews are welcome and free to practice a religion is a place where they can live.

Changing course a bit to kind of the October 7th attack, you know, do you think Israel should call for a ceasefire and that Hamas should release hostages? How do you think Israel should deal with Hamas and violent groups essentially?

JK: The only thing that we can say about Israel is that they are the root cause of all the problems and the only thing we wish to see is the peaceful dismantlement of that entity that is called Israel. The underlying issue is the occupation, the state of Israel itself.

Right. And so the ADL on their site says that Neturei Karta has met with Hamas and Hezbollah. First of all, is that true?

JK: That is true. Yeah. We met all Palestinian factions and all different kinds of factions. And all of them have made it clear that they have no problem with Jews or Judaism, their only problem is with the Zionist occupation of Palestine, and we have made clear, that we as religious Jews have no problem to continue the tradition and the historic peaceful coexistence under a Muslim or Arab rule, be it in Palestine or in any other country. That was the aim of those kinds of meetings, is what it was specifically a very peaceful and religious Jewish delegations reaching out to what was supposed to be the most horrific enemies of the Jews like Hamas and Hezbollah, like the way Israel wants us to believe that they are dangerous enemies, they're not. So we met them, we made it clear that we are not at war with them and the Jews are not at war with the Muslims, specifically with Palestinians, and they made it clear that they have no problem with Jews. So that specifically triggers groups like ADL to criticize Neturei Karta because in their view, the most important thing for Zionism is to have this state and to have … this hatred between our peoples intact, because otherwise there's no need for a state of Israel to protect anyone from anything. There is no enemy, there is nothing.

Was there anything else you wanted to say?

JK: Yeah, just talking about the settlements. When the war broke out in Ukraine, Zionists came to Ukrainian Jews and offered them to settle in the West Bank. We tried to reach out to the Ukrainian Jews to make them aware of what they were being used for. And also it's not in their favor at all. I mean, they're trying to escape a war-torn country and they get in right in another war but Israel doesn't care about the lives of Jewish people either. They have a lot to say about human shields but this is actually what they're using Jewish people to settle and colonize other people's land and to use them as human shields. They have this massive propaganda that people just buy.

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